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Post by Mr. Metallic on Sept 15, 2022 12:00:31 GMT -5
Red stuff I have a question for you all. I've been using Tamiya brush paints for about 20 years, but mostly metallics and flat/gloss black. I'm new to their gloss primary colors, but I bought two brand new bottles (specifically red and yellow) and attempted to use them on recent projects. My question is, they don't seem to have a lot of pigment. They are thoroughly mixed, but to achieve full coverage it would probably require two coats, and successfully applying one coat with a tiny brush is nerve wracking enough, let alone a second coat. When I've used the black or metal shades in the past I don't have this issue. Has anyone else had this experience? I could go back to Testors I guess. I haven't been able to find the new Revell paints locally yet, but would like to try those.
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Post by skip on Sept 15, 2022 16:17:15 GMT -5
Craig - The issue you are encountering is the "New California" friendly paint and chemical formula paints. First, they removed the lead, then they "addressed" the solvents. Leaving us with paint formulas that will no longer cover in one coat, it takes two or more coats to get the coverage we once got with the old formulas. Now the paint manufacturers have been forced to get rid of "unenvironmentally friendly" pigments, resin carriers, and solvents we all get to enjoy these new formulas as the paint companies don't make a California blend and the rest of the world blend paint as some might sneak its way back into California and poison them... Across the board with all solvent based enamel paints, I don't think they are covering like they used to with the newer formulas. I'm not sure what the answer to getting good coverage with the new formula paints is, but from what I am hearing from some of my old sign painting buddies is that things are going to get worse!
We have had the unleaded paint formulas for years, long enough that some have never used paints with lead. There was a difference with the lead-based paints, many say the hues of certain colors were brighter with the lead versions, they also covered in one smooth coat. I apprenticed as a Sign painter between high school and college in the mid-70's. The enamel paints we were using back then were night and day from what you can get today. You could "dose" them with hot solvents (lacquer thinner, Xylene,,,) on a cold day or "over-dose" them with mineral spirits, even white gas on a hot day and still get great coverage. The company that makes Sign Painter's One-Shot enamel, Nylac, has outright stated on multiple occasions that the reason its users are no longer getting the coverage that they were accustomed to is the changing of the paint formulas to meet the California environmental propositions.
I remember as a kid, my uncle showing me how to brush paint a '36 Ford 3W Coupe. He would first take a dab of the old Testers enamel, to the model and then a bit of mineral spirits onto the brush working paint and thinner together on the model's surface. He was so good at it that it would be hard to tell whether it was brushed or sprayed, especially after it was rubbed out and waxed.
I have switched for the most part to acrylic paints for brush painting models, using their brush on clear coats - gloss, flat, semi-gloss... Good acrylics will get the coverage in one coat, as well as spray through an airbrush. I'm currently using Vallejo model colors and game air as well as some of the MIG and Humbrol acrylics that have started showing up in the hobby shops. I do use craft acrylics in the 2 oz. bottles on occasion. You have to be careful and stay away from the really cheap brands, they are cheap because they don't have as much pigment in them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2022 18:26:45 GMT -5
To set the record straight, from someone that spent years in the auto body/paint field, it's not just California, it's improved health & safety standards nationwide. When I worked as a painter for Freightliner, we had to wear a paper painter's suit with glove & a fresh air hood with an air line attached, not just a mask or respirator when in the booth.
And that was 17-32 years ago. When I see modelers using 2K clear & other automotive paints without gloves, or even a 2 stage respirator, & without any concern for their own personal health or safety, I just shake my head. That stuff'll kill you, as well as causing lingering & debilitating health issues & can be inhaled, absorbed into your skin, etc. But, if people are that stupid, then maybe their stupidity can clean out the gene pool. Consider the paints & chemicals the equivalent of chlorine in this case.
Myself? I have a hobby spray booth with a vent, & I always wear my 2 stage respirator when I spray anything. I replace my booth filter at least once a month, depending how much spray painting I do. I also change out the cartridges & filters in my respirator twice a year.
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Post by skip on Sept 15, 2022 19:41:24 GMT -5
Mark - You got that right, what I was referring to is that seemingly all of this reformulation began in California with all their props, paint manufacturers won't just put out a California only formula they give it to the rest of us. California has long been an environmental test bed for many of the nationwide OSHA and Federal environmental rulings we all now live with. The painters at Boeing all wore similar suits with forced air feed masks, as an inspector we were only required to wear a two-stage full face filter without the air feed, after the space had been evacuated.
Yes, you are definitely correct on the 2k clear, I will not use it at all! It's just like when Imron and Deltron hit the shelves where the hobby users started using it in their own garages without proper air fed respirators, BOOM! Out go the Lights! as it sealed over their lung tissue as it catalyzed. I know one guy who now uses oxygen as his condition has worsened, it all started out shooting Imron primer and BRG topcoat on a '67 Sprite. Paint job came out beautiful, didn't need but a bit of polishing out, he's paid for that paint job for the rest of his life though. Barbados Rex recently had a YouTube video on a single stage clear that he tested and says that it is as good as a 2K clear. I am going to see if I can't find some to test out, otherwise it's still Duplicolor or other single stage clear for me.
I really stress safety in our hobby and in my full-scale car hobby; I know club members in the car club I'm sure must be thinking "There he goes spouting that safety carp again!". Yeah, I bitch about it every time it comes up, mostly because I care about the people I hang around with and hate going to funerals!
The other thing with blowing the fumes out of the house with the spray booth is that I'm now concerned about my next-door neighbors smelling lacquer fumes or rattle can fumes as they are exhausted out the vent set up. I have seen at least one charcoal filter set up that's supposed to take care of the fumes, but short of a bazillion dollar scrubber I'm not sure what to do about the fumes. They dissipate pretty quick but with a long spraying session I can see the fumes wafting through the neighborhood and someone getting bent out of shape over it!
Hey Craig, I don't think we really meant to Hi-Jack your thread. Sorry if you felt that way!
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Post by Mr. Metallic on Sept 16, 2022 5:59:33 GMT -5
Hey Craig, I don't think we really meant to Hi-Jack your thread. Sorry if you felt that way! Nope, it's all good. I asked the question, and what you guys say makes sense. I guess I need to research a little more what the figure/Warhammer guys are using because I know with those little bitty statues and figures they paint they don't want to be doing multiple coats. And skip, thanks for the heads up on the acrylics versus enamels. The LHS has two racks of Tamiya paint, I just assumed the differentiating factor was the size of the bottles. Maybe I need to look more closely and buy the acrylics. I bought a bunch of the Vallejo paints when the LHS first got them 5-6 years ago, but seem to remember getting similar results with some coverage issues, and I don't care for the bottles they use. But I may need to revisit them. I wish someone local would stock the Revell paints because I've heard a LOT of good things from the European builders that have had access to them for years. Anyway, the red on this project is good enough for me. Just have a bit more detail painting to do and polishing the plastic.
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Post by skip on Sept 17, 2022 9:05:20 GMT -5
From what I have read regarding figure, Warhammer, Monster, Ed Roth Monsters, etc. is most I've read about are using either:
Vallejo "Model Color" for brush work - good coverage, highly pigmented paints, may be thinned for airbrush Vallejo "Model Air" for airbrush (pre-thinned) Vallejo "Metal Color" (recommended) for airbrushing (pre-thinned), can be brushed with multiple coats Mig for Airbrush (pre-thinned) Humbrol for brush work Createx & Createx Auto Air for airbrushing only (pre-thinned) Craft Paints for brush work - make sure they are the higher end paints = more pigment, more coverage, may be thinned & sprayed Artist Tube Acrylics for brush work - may be thinned using Createx or other good airbrush acrylic thinners Testers "Model Master Acrylic" They are still out there - Highly pigmented, one coat coverage
Acrylics adhere best over a good primer; I use rattle can automotive primer. Otherwise, acrylics will bead up on bare styrene, then begin flaking or rubbing off once they have fully cured.
Lower end craft paints, one example is Michael's "Apple Barrel" are good examples of low pigmented acrylic paints. They can still be used, but they are going to require multiple coats for coverage.
Stripping Acrylics - Purple Power, Simple Green, Window Cleaner with ammonia, or even soaking in water for a long period of time, all will remove most of the acrylic paint. Purple Power and Simple Green will remove the primer, which I think is best when you are totally starting over and laying down a new primer foundation to place the acrylic paint over.
This is not an all-inclusive list, there are probably many other acrylics out there that are being used, this is what I'm familiar using and have had good results using in past projects.
Make sure you look into the "clear coats". Vallejo calls it "Varnish" they offer Matt, Gloss and I think Flat. I also use both gloss and matte Krylon "Artist Fixative" over acrylics. You can use most of the single stage rattle can clear coats. I don't use 2K clears but I don't see why it wouldn't work either. Some of the better craft paint manufacturers offer clear topcoats in gloss, matte and flat - again stick with the higher end paints.
Fine Scale Modeler has had a few acrylic articles on gaming figures within the last year or so detailing out the acrylic paints being used.
Hope this gives you a start.
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