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Post by garagepunkfan1 on Dec 1, 2015 12:16:05 GMT -5
Hi Guys, i'm weighing a build of a non-specific race replica '69 Falcon as an SCCA Trans-Am series Sedan. this is an area i feel is a highly under-represented aspect of 1/24 - 1/25 scale plastic kit builds. considering the hot rod pedigree of the car constructors involved in the heyday of 1966-1971 (Bud Moore, Shelby, etc.) and the level of mods done to these cars during that time, it is not hard for me to make the connection to them as genuine, down to the core hot rods. there are many other possibilities of muscle or pony cars that are homologated for SCCA and FIA road course competition that are well represented in kit form but few think to build them that way. thoughts?
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Post by Bernard Kron on Dec 1, 2015 16:38:26 GMT -5
Bud Moore had a stock car pedigree and, as far as I know, never saw action on a drag strip or dry lake. As for Carroll Shelby, he came from the sports car world (Frank Arciero, John Edgar, Tony Paravanno, Jim Hall, etc...) He got his start racing an MGTC and quickly rose through the ranks racing to race big-bore Cad-Allards, then Maseratis, Ferraris and eventually on to Europe. So those aren't particularly good examples. SoCal guys like Phil Hill, Skip Hudson, Chuck Daigh and Dan Gurney played on both sides of the street in their younger days (i.e. the 1940's where you took your racing where you could find it). But by the early 1950's they all had clearly cast their lot with the sporty car crowd when it came time to make a career of it. SCCA and FIA aren't initials I would associate with the straightline racing tradition. Genuine crossover types like Max Balchowsky and Ak Miller were few and far between. Yes, Reventlow's Scarabs (1957) were crafted by a veritable who's who from the L.A. lakes and circle track racing scene, but by the late 50's and early 60's the die was cast and never the twain would meet, at least not culturally. Sure, everyone was using pushrod American V8s and the hop up and tuning tricks often had come from hot rodding, but by the late 60's it was all over but the shouting. Big time drag racing was in full cry and becoming ever more specialized, and the road racing scene shared very little beyond engine technology with the rod & custom types. So I would say that Trans Am wouldn't figure high on my list of TRaKables... Cool cars, yes. A Golden Age in its own right, yes. But not in the spirit of this forum, IMHO.
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Post by garagepunkfan1 on Dec 2, 2015 13:30:22 GMT -5
Bernard, thanks for your input. however if i may play devil's advocate in debunking the "separate worlds" theory for one moment. i sense that the communities were somewhat more fluid for a lot longer than one might initially be led to believe...example...the late Bob Skinner of the famed Surfers Top Fuel team worked at Shelby American in '64-'65 as he and Tom Jobe were building their fueler. "Lotus" John Morton, Skinner's fellow employee at Shelby (who later won the under-2000cc Trans Am championship for BRE/Datsun), was the first driver Tom Jobe and Bob Skinner put behind the butterfly wheel of the Surfers fueler. When the Surfers called it quits in Drag Racing after the 1966 season (because it no longer was fun for them), Jobe and Skinner moved on to wrenching on Can Am cars for 4 or 5 seasons, while lending a hand over at Mickey Thompson Enterprises working on among other projects, the Challenger II LSR. Jobe later became senior Race Team Fabricator for Honda Racing for some 30-odd years. there is a push-pull at work there, an excitement and a draw that pulled restless thinkers like Jobe and Skinner towards the direction of what they saw as a new frontier or a challenge; unaware or un-heeding of lines of delineation that not dared to be crossed, or crossed back over again.
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Post by Bernard Kron on Dec 2, 2015 19:18:59 GMT -5
I don't disagree with you at all that there was a great deal of movement among professionals in the LA area who worked in shops that played in one field or another. But that doesn't change the fact that by the 60's lines were being pretty sharply drawn among various car-building traditions, (circle track, straightline and road racing). And it's the cars, in the end, that we model, not the careers and interests of the personalities who made them. I'm afraid that just because John Morton tried out as a driver for Jobe and Skinner (he lasted two weekends IIRC - although to be fair they weren't ever satisfied until they struck pay dirt with Mike Sorokin) doesn't take away from the fact that he was "Lotus" John after all, and a pretty pure sporty car guy at that.* I seriously doubt that you'll get any takers on whether a BRE 510 Datsun is TRaKable, or even a pre-'69 Bill Stroppe Mercury (NASCAR or TransAm) for that matter. The period you allude to, the 1960's, was truly a Golden Age in American Racing, and racers like Tom Jobe were restless souls taking their enormous gifts where their muse directed them; and we all benefitted from the results, whether it was at the dragstrip, the speedway or the road course. But by that point the spirit of these machines are pretty sharply defined and separate, IMHO. The gray area, historically, lies in the immediate post-WWII period through the early 50's, but a Von Dutch paint job and a Hilborn injected SBC don't make a Scarab any more TRaKable for all of that...
*Morton's contemporary, and fellow road-racer, Jim Busby, has moved with alacrity between both traditions, and built some pretty fabulous machines over the decades. But they reside in clearly distinct areas and he enjoys each for what they offer him.
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Post by Carps on Dec 4, 2015 16:28:59 GMT -5
I'm not normally one for jumping in on these discussions, especially considering I don't participate here as much as I probably should.
However, I'd like to ask a question. If taking a British sports car, then stuffing the biggest Yankee V8 into the engine bay and using the resultant weapon to whup the European sporty cars at their own game is not hot rodding in the purest sense of the term then what is it?
Shelby did it with the Cobra, and whupped damn near everybody, Ford did it with the GT40 and kicked Enzo Ferrari's arse and those machines were not considered at the time by the European purist sporty car set as anything but bare bones basic yankee hot rods. And they did squeal about it and how it wasn't right or shouldn't be allowed.
If anybody here presented a model of anything from a Deuce Coupe to a british MG, the purest of all sports cars (and how many of those ran down the drag strip I can't count - Heck, I even remember the first time I saw a Ford GT 40 it was drag racing at the Riverside strip here in Australia - and beating the local hot rods.) with a side oliler 427 stuffed into the engine bay, we'd all say wow and wet our pants over it. So I find it difficult to accept the separation here. heck, everytime I see a small block ford in a 'traditionally styled hot rod, like a Deuce or model 40, it's wearing a mountain of Shelby's equipment starting with the rocker covers that proclaim it as a Cobra. When I was a kid, we had a few Trans Am mustangs and camaros racing here and those cars all spent as much time playing with the 'real' hot rods on the drags strip in between whupping the Jaguars and other European touring cars on the road race tracks.
Ted Halibrand made his wheels for road race cars, American's D spokes were not made for hot rods but for the then current model pony cars of the early '60s, we hot rodders adopted all that stuff. So I dont think it's totally fair to exclude some of those things just because they don't fit some kind of modern day stereotypes of what we think is a hot rod and what we think is something else. Some of those things were always hot rods, just based on contemporary equipment not rusty old junk.
If we were to really stick to the line we'd have to say our models are more representetive of modern 'fibreglass' reproductions or kit cars that proper hot rods because they are all made from plastic, usually using brand new parts from other kits and parts from computers etc to detail them which would never have happened back in the day. Fact is, early Trans Am Racing, its cars and drivers DID influence and participate in what we call genuine hot rodding activities and to deny that is to be the folks rewriting or distorting history.
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Post by Bernard Kron on Dec 4, 2015 19:59:22 GMT -5
You're right about the sporty car crowd squealing like stuck pigs about the big V8 iron invading their world of aluminum and overhead cams. But Enzo also complained about the Anglophone "garagistes" when they first whupped his ass. But I doubt that anyone mistook Briggs Cunningham for a hot rodder, or even Shelby or Jim Hall. I mean seriously, is this TRaKable?
I dunno Peter, a Trans Am car wasn't ever a hot rod to me, it was a Detroit muscle car modified for road racing . Same thing with NASCAR stockers - same bodywork and much of the motor stuff evolved from the same roots as their drag strip brethren, obviously, but not a hot rod. But I never went to stock car event or a Trans Am race that I mistook for a drag race or custom car show. Different vibe, different culture, different cars. So my concern is less about the history of it all, although I seem to have gotten into that stuff a great deal above (most likely too much... ) than what would happen once these pages featured admittedly historically linked stuff that was, at best, borderline. I don't need to post everything I build here at TRaK. I'll stick by what I said about Stroppe Mercs and BRE 510's...
P.S. Nice to see you here - I dig your posts on the Australian site.
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Post by Carps on Dec 5, 2015 4:32:43 GMT -5
So my concern is less about the history of it all, although I seem to have gotten into that stuff a great deal above (most likely too much... ) than what would happen once these pages featured admittedly historically linked stuff that was, at best, borderline. I don't need to post everything I build here at TRaK. I'll stick by what I said about Stroppe Mercs and BRE 510's... hey Bernard, I think you've kinda hint on the problem which is that we each of us have a differing view of most things. here in Oz, anything generally had strong appeal to a car starved youth of the 1950s and 1960s, so I'm always going to see things differently to you guys. And because of the limited action in almost all forms of motor sport, the road race guys were as heavily involved in drag racing as the trad styled hot rodders. There was even a genuine type 35 Bugatti open wheeler that was fitted with a Corvette 327 for drag racing. I'm no different to everybody here in that I have my own very clearly defined (in my own mind) set of rules as to what is and what isn't cool. I see lots here that I would not do or I think doesn't accurately replicate my version/understanding of history, but since they are cool models I'm not ever going to criticise them, because the builders dont desrve that. On the other hand, I comment Bob for actually having the balls to add this thread to his web site, so that some of this stuff can be openly discussed without prejudice and I trust offence to anybody's personal beliefs or opinions of what constitutes a representation of traditional styles and values. However, my biggest fear is that sometimes there's a tendency for us to rewrite history, not because what exists or has been written is wrong, but because we have a different view of it or perhaps a little prejudice against a certain type of car that existed in history and another person's version doesnt suit us. Or maybe maybe it;s just because some cars arent considered, then or now to fit our version of what is right and proper. The debate will rage forever and I am glad to be able to be part of it. PS it's good to be back here and one day soon I'll maybe even get back to building some models, but I fear I still have a long way to go before I can say life is back to anything like normal. Cheers PPS, I reckon if you deep six the fog/driving lamps and door numbers that falcon might fit OK here.
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Post by afx on Dec 22, 2015 12:23:29 GMT -5
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Post by Bernard Kron on Dec 22, 2015 12:36:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, JC. It pays to get back to basics and read the source material. Bob's recent pronouncements also served to remind me how hard he has worked to keep things "pure" (as he put it) and yet realistic and practical. As he wrote in the guidelines:
"4. It's really very simple......Traditional styled pre-1970 rod (1969 and older) , kustom (concepts are acceptable) , vintage drags and salt flat cars ONLY! (some pre 40's dirt trackers and other racers are acceptable)."
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