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Post by skip on Jun 11, 2020 9:14:21 GMT -5
as you probably know; Sam Barris did the custom work, while George was the mouth ! lookin good Charley ! Yep, I knew that fact. Figure that George came up with the "Design", Sam and the rest of the shop was expected to carry it out.
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Post by chepp on Jun 12, 2020 23:30:40 GMT -5
Thanks, all, for your continuing interest in this glacier-paced project. Here's another long post from me as a "shut-in" although I did get my first haircut in three months today. I feel 10 pounds lighter as I sit here at home on a Friday night. So, I'll just type the night away.
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post by mack2856 Jun 9, 2020 18:12:08 GMT -7:
Don't give up, you gotta think like Billy Mitchell, put some ginger bread on it and a great set of wheels and tires, then put a pretty girl next to it. Ok forget about the girl, but this is to neat to stop now.
You've got a good point there. I'll keep going with it. I started with this car because of the Mitchell-era knife-edge styling and the way the front and rear fenders almost begged to be set free. I was poking around the 'net today and found this article that strongly suggests that the '66 Riv was the car that best represented Mitchell* : www.curbsideclassic.com/curbside-classics-american/curbside-classic-1966-buick-riviera-the-ultimate-bill-mitchell-mobile/ . For future pix I plan to add some wheels, probably the stock ones for now, to avoid the "black hole" look it has now. I don't want to forget about the girl...maybe I should include a swimming pool, too!
* the author points out that Mitchell might not have picked this car as his favorite, but despite that the '66 is the one that best represents him. I'm pretty sure that I agree with the author's conclusion. Everybody, read it and let us know what you think.
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Post by jeff32 on Jun 9, 2020 at 7:54pm Agreed, at least see it through. Years ago I had a build I felt like this about, I’m glad I pushed through because I ended up learning quite a bit in the process.
Yeah, I/we will figure out something to save improve it. - - - Post by skip on Jun 10, 2020 at 5:47am [snip] ...I'm glad to see I'm not the only one here who has that opinion of George Barris, though some of the "Customs" that came out of the Barris' Shop early on had good design. Most of the stuff done for TV work already had designs before they came to Barris to create, Batmobile, Munsters Coach, Dragula, to name a few, though George did try to take credit for much of the design work on them...[snip]
It was fun reading this post and quotes again. I agree. I was in the target market for GB's stuff in the mid to late '60s but nearly all of it didn't appeal to me then or now. Probably the tiny bit of his output that I might like was designed by someone else who was never publicly acknowledged by GB. I met him once in a meeting where he was pitching my boss for a toy project. I didn't like him. As a huckster, though, he did get the entertainment industry to include special vehicles. I don't know, but I would expect that his skill was to reliably provide vehicles that were: 1. On time. 2. On budget. 3. "Good enough" appearing for film. 4. Flashy and justified their expense to the "know-nothing-about-cars" people who made decisions. None of these points include appeal to car-guys. Sam Barris was wise to leave when he did.
- - - Post by spex84 on Jun 10, 2020 at 3:22pm Charley, you get points for trying something this crazy! I do wonder if what it really needed in the first place was a top-chop. I think a bunch of the lengthening operations were perhaps compensating for the high roof. There are a lot of shapes going on in the rear fenders where they meet the trunk; I bet that area could be simplified somewhat. I dunno---I wouldn't give up on it yet!!
skip, I am well aware of Barris' reputation and practices. No pedestal here!
You're right about the roof. Narrowing the body threw off the proportions. I'm not sure if chopping the top can save it, though. I can mess around with Photoshop and see. Yes, the rear fenders still need improving.
A mid '60s version of the cars shown below are what I was intending to achieve. Captain Obvious might point out that none of them are hardtops. Maybe my car needs to be a convertible, too, with a windshield like these cars have and not try to use the Riv's A pillars. However, I'm also aware that making a convertible out of a car that was designed only to be a hardtop is not an easy thing to do.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 20:53:20 GMT -5
Thanks, all, for your continuing interest in this glacier-paced project. Here's another long post from me as a "shut-in" although I did get my first haircut in three months today. I feel 10 pounds lighter as I sit here at home on a Friday night. So, I'll just type the night away.
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post by mack2856 Jun 9, 2020 18:12:08 GMT -7:
Don't give up, you gotta think like Billy Mitchell, put some ginger bread on it and a great set of wheels and tires, then put a pretty girl next to it. Ok forget about the girl, but this is to neat to stop now. You've got a good point there. I'll keep going with it. I started with this car because of the Mitchell-era knife-edge styling and the way the front and rear fenders almost begged to be set free. I was poking around the 'net today and found this article that strongly suggests that the '66 Riv was the car that best represented Mitchell* : www.curbsideclassic.com/curbside-classics-american/curbside-classic-1966-buick-riviera-the-ultimate-bill-mitchell-mobile/ . For future pix I plan to add some wheels, probably the stock ones for now, to avoid the "black hole" look it has now. I don't want to forget about the girl...maybe I should include a swimming pool, too! * the author points out that Mitchell might not have picked this car as his favorite, but despite that the '66 is the one that best represents him. I'm pretty sure that I agree with the author's conclusion. Everybody, read it and let us know what you think.
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Post by jeff32 on Jun 9, 2020 at 7:54pm Agreed, at least see it through. Years ago I had a build I felt like this about, I’m glad I pushed through because I ended up learning quite a bit in the process.
Yeah, I/we will figure out something to save improve it. - - - Post by skip on Jun 10, 2020 at 5:47am [snip] ...I'm glad to see I'm not the only one here who has that opinion of George Barris, though some of the "Customs" that came out of the Barris' Shop early on had good design. Most of the stuff done for TV work already had designs before they came to Barris to create, Batmobile, Munsters Coach, Dragula, to name a few, though George did try to take credit for much of the design work on them...[snip]
It was fun reading this post and quotes again. I agree. I was in the target market for GB's stuff in the mid to late '60s but nearly all of it didn't appeal to me then or now. Probably the tiny bit of his output that I might like was designed by someone else who was never publicly acknowledged by GB. I met him once in a meeting where he was pitching my boss for a toy project. I didn't like him. As a huckster, though, he did get the entertainment industry to include special vehicles. I don't know, but I would expect that his skill was to reliably provide vehicles that were: 1. On time. 2. On budget. 3. "Good enough" appearing for film. 4. Flashy and justified their expense to the "know-nothing-about-cars" people who made decisions. None of these points include appeal to car-guys. Sam Barris was wise to leave when he did. - - - Post by spex84 on Jun 10, 2020 at 3:22pm Charley, you get points for trying something this crazy! I do wonder if what it really needed in the first place was a top-chop. I think a bunch of the lengthening operations were perhaps compensating for the high roof. There are a lot of shapes going on in the rear fenders where they meet the trunk; I bet that area could be simplified somewhat. I dunno---I wouldn't give up on it yet!!
skip, I am well aware of Barris' reputation and practices. No pedestal here!
You're right about the roof. Narrowing the body threw off the proportions. I'm not sure if chopping the top can save it, though. I can mess around with Photoshop and see. Yes, the rear fenders still need improving. A mid '60s version of the cars shown below are what I was intending to achieve. Captain Obvious might point out that none of them are hardtops. Maybe my car needs to be a convertible, too, with a windshield like these cars have and not try to use the Riv's A pillars. However, I'm also aware that making a convertible out of a car that was designed only to be a hardtop is not an easy thing to do.
I knew that your inspirations were the coachbuilt style designs of the 30s, & that's why I refrained from commenting. Having owned a 1/1 67 Rivera, (same exact body, different engine, interior trim & outer emblems mostly), I knew that the knife edge styling & proportions that you liked about the car would wind up being the very things that fought you the most & the hardest. I wasn't sure how to express that without it seeming like I was talking badly about your ideas & project. Look closely as the Auburn, Duesenberg & the Cord, (the latter of which is my all time favorite bodystyle of any car); with the exception of the Auburn's boattail, all are characterized by soft flowing lines & rounded designs, which lend themselves to the separate fenders & body. The sharper, more angular knife edged design of the Riviera, works against that very flowing type of design, which, combined with the overall bulk of the Riviera, (& it's fastback style roof), is what caused the problems with your design. Even the sharp edges of the boattail & the rear of the Auburn's fenders are still rounded You might have been better off if you'd had an old JoHan 66 Olds Toronado to use as your basis; as though it shares body panels with the Riv, (check out the windshield, roof, back light & trunk), it also has more prominently rounded wheel arches, & a rounder & slightly softer front end design. The Toronado, since it was FWD from the start, also had deliberate Cord 810/812 styling cues built right into it, as mentioned by the Olds designers themselves. The grille & rim design, with the spaced holes are directly from the Cord. Even if not successful, your ideas were very interesting, & if you pick back up on this project at some point, I'd suggest experimenting with some half round styrene of the appropriate size to soften up the sharp peaks of the fenders & the body. A design such as you envision begs to be softer & rounder, with a strong Rubenesque feel.
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Post by chepp on Jun 14, 2020 12:50:24 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments, Mark. I like the way you think. It would have been OK to speak up earlier. This project is a good example of why stylists should create drawings before making a 3D of an all-new or heavily modified design.
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Post by spex84 on Jun 15, 2020 13:00:44 GMT -5
A tricky animal indeed. I still think this view 100% works! I don't know if you build sci-fi, but this would make a kickass hover-car with the wheel arches filled in!
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Post by chepp on Jun 17, 2020 21:32:38 GMT -5
A tricky animal indeed. I still think this view 100% works! I don't know if you build sci-fi, but this would make a kickass hover-car with the wheel arches filled in! Ha ha. Anything is possible.
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Post by chepp on Jun 17, 2020 21:38:30 GMT -5
Even if not successful, your ideas were very interesting, & if you pick back up on this project at some point, I'd suggest experimenting with some half round styrene of the appropriate size to soften up the sharp peaks of the fenders & the body. A design such as you envision begs to be softer & rounder, with a strong Rubenesque feel. I've packed the model and parts kits away for awhile. Instead of throwing putty, I'll mess around with retouched photo possibilities. I couldn't come up with ideas right away for making the knife edges softer and rounder. But, here are some quicky Photoshop hacks of chopped top and convertible ideas.
Dramatic lighting and wheels helped it a lot.
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Post by jeff on Jun 17, 2020 21:52:02 GMT -5
Oh, I rather like that last one! The roof missing really changes things. The chopped pic is an improvement as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2020 18:57:25 GMT -5
I've packed the model and parts kits away for awhile. Instead of throwing putty, I'll mess around with retouched photo possibilities. I couldn't come up with ideas right away for making the knife edges softer and rounder. But, here are some quicky Photoshop hacks of chopped top and convertible ideas. Dramatic lighting and wheels helped it a lot. The chopped one shows a lot of potential. If/when you return to this project, if you decided to go that route, I'd suggest doing some more Photoshop work, & look at thinning the C pillars a bit, to increase the DLO on each side & relieving the thickness of the pillars to compensate a bit for the chop. I like the topless version too, but something seems to be nagging at my eyes a bit with it. The trunk area would definitely need some work to integrate it into the overall body without the roof.
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Post by mack2856 on Jun 19, 2020 19:39:56 GMT -5
Since we're giving our two cents, I think lowering the upsweep of the lower windshield would make the whole top look lower and improve top heavy delema!
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Post by chepp on Jun 20, 2020 17:13:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions. Here are two slight revisions for your review.
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Post by mack2856 on Jun 20, 2020 17:25:04 GMT -5
The second one is way more cool, since your good at photoshop can you make the windshield larger and deeper toward the hood?
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Post by chepp on Jun 21, 2020 12:18:31 GMT -5
The second one is way more cool, since your good at photoshop can you make the windshield larger and deeper toward the hood? Good idea if it's what I think that you meant: move the base of the windshield forward (without moving the location of the top of the A pillars). this makes the windshield a little larger and slants the A pillars a little more. Problem: Now the side windows won't have room to roll down into the doors unless the front door crack is moved forward a couple of inches. But if that is done the opened door will bump into the front fender extensions. Oh well, here's what it might look like without changing the door crack.
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Post by chepp on Jun 21, 2020 14:00:48 GMT -5
A tricky animal indeed. I still think this view 100% works! I don't know if you build sci-fi, but this would make a kickass hover-car with the wheel arches filled in! Ha ha. Anything is possible. Space Cadets, your ride is here.
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Post by mack2856 on Jun 21, 2020 16:53:29 GMT -5
Holy crapp, I love that, it changes everything. Put a little Future floor wax tint in that bubble and Shazam you win a cigar!
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