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Post by volvo544special65 on Feb 28, 2015 2:40:02 GMT -5
OK, I've got a dilemma here. This is NOT a way to sneak a borderline car into here. I am going to build it this way anyhow, and the question of TRAKability only is adressed to get the answer wheter I should post it here or not.
Drag car built according to the 1966 AHRA rulebook - yes, I know that it is OK, this far. To run in one of the "Stock" classes - so, the alterations will be small, but still make it a drag car and not a stocker. Questionable subject - a Mustang.
So, it is both a fairly stock muscle car, that I know is untrakable and I know why. Yet, it is a vintage drag car, which is very trakable.
Opinions?
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Post by southpier on Feb 28, 2015 7:24:10 GMT -5
i have my own cut-off date: october 22, 1952.
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Post by Bernard Kron on Feb 28, 2015 11:14:07 GMT -5
A more general question seems to be coming up in one form or another repeatedly. The question is: Are 60's production based door-slammers, if externally unmodified, in the spirit of TRaK, regardless of the state of tune or of minor "upgrades" (i.e. mag wheels, fancy tires and pin striping)? My own opinion is that they are borderline at best, and definitely not in the spirit of the board at their worst. But I sense a clear generational issue here, as well. Their appeal and mystique is strongly related to the modeler's automotive formative years. The force of numbers is probably in favor of including them since time is taking its toll and those who grew up with these cars are rapidly becoming the majority. As an example, a mid-60's door slammer, properly executed of course, has a better chance of winning MOM on any given month than a non-stock based drag or LSR machine . The evidence, I will admit, is far from overwhelming, but the trend, at least to my eyes, is quite clear. Being of the more purist Rod and Kustom persuasion, it takes some pretty aggressive hot rodding of these cars so that they stop looking to me like the warmed over compact cars that were their roots.
The identical controversy came up with the advent of the "factory customs" of the late 50's (Mopar "Forward Look" Big Fin cars, '58 GMC one-year wonders, Ford fin cars and GMC '59 Big Fin cars, etc.) and the Mild Custom trend of "merely" shaving them, lowering them, changing the 'caps and giving them elaborate paint jobs. This was held not to be "true" customizing. To our eyes today, they represent the quintessential customized car of the mid 20th century, and their classic late 40's and early 50's Full Kustom precursors are often less known and recognized by even the Rod and Kustom enthusiast.
I made this comment slightly inflammatory to underscore what I think are the issues and to prompt further discussion. Regardless of my own opinion, I think the Muscle Car phenomenon speaks strongly to several generations of Rod and Kustom enthusiasts and requires that TRaK either become more precise in what it represents, or that we recognize that time marches on and our rod & kustom ideals with it. I can't recall who it was among us who so wisely recommended using the H.A.M.B. as a fool proof guideline. I feel like I must agree. But I can easily see how we might be overruled, regrettable as I might think that would be.
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Post by volvo544special65 on Feb 28, 2015 12:44:05 GMT -5
Well, that is about my thoughts too... And it is easy to say "if you have to ask if it's wrong, it probably is", and I feel a bit like that too, this time. On the other hand, I thought that maybe it is unnecessary to be anal about my own builds since this is not my place and not my rules. So, we'll see if it ever will feel "right enough" for me to fit in here, but regardless if I feel like posting it or not, opinions would always be interesting, especially from the admins....
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Post by rbartrop on Feb 28, 2015 13:34:13 GMT -5
i have my own cut-off date: october 22, 1952. My personal cutoff for Traditional with a capital T is 1955. Chevy's small block came out, pretty much putting the last nail in the coffin of the flathead as a performance option, Grabowski's T came out, starting a trend to more drag inspired rods, and customs were getting more flamboyant, moving away from the minimalist aesthetic that had defined the 40s custom. Stuff built after this date obviously isn't bad, it's just a different animal. Call it post-tradtional, if you will. I think you can draw another line under the year 1963, or whenever aftermarket wheels started coming on the market, because they made such a change in the look of both rods and customs. We've also seen elsewhere in the forum that a lot of things were happenning after this date that people tend not to think of as traditional. Again, not a bad thing, and I happen to really like the look of 60s rods, but a different thing. Again, this is just my opinion. Everyone else has their own opinion on what that magic number should be. None of which alters the fact that the cutoff for this board is 1969. That it turns out we have a few more options available is an opportunity, not a problem. We've accepted any number of mild customs that are little more than a non-standard paint job and a new set of hubcaps, so to start claiming that a set of mags doesn't count is bogus. We already have a set of rules, and I think if we're going to err, do in favour of the letter of the rules rather than trying to agonize over the spirit. If on top of everything else, we have to try and read people's minds to make something that qualifies, that will tick people off, and that will drive them away.
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Post by cycolacfan on Feb 28, 2015 13:42:21 GMT -5
Well this Nova was accepted for the current MOM so if the board moderators don't have a problem with it then it surely suggests the same applies to your Mustang.
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Post by cycolacfan on Feb 28, 2015 13:47:35 GMT -5
For the record my own self-imposed cut off for here is 1964, but I don't make the rules and I'm not sure now is the time to be turning people away.
I can ignore builds I don't like but if we became overrun with Bullitt Mustangs - the car McQueen's Frank Bullitt drove had aftermarket mag wheels, was a pre 1969 car, and it was nosed and decked with a different grille - then I'd be put off the site.
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Post by Johnny on Feb 28, 2015 15:53:35 GMT -5
Well, I guess the same Bullitt Mustang would come along great here as a drag car? We've seen 1968 Super Stock Darts for instance. I hope they pass the muster since they are Super Stock (as well as the Nova above).
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Post by RodBurNeR on Feb 28, 2015 22:40:33 GMT -5
If the car is 1969 or older, built with parts available at the time , in a style that would be seen or thought of at the time....I don't see any problems.
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Post by lo51merc on Mar 27, 2015 21:48:36 GMT -5
Succint and to the point Bob!
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Post by volvo544special65 on Aug 2, 2015 12:26:57 GMT -5
OK, it turned out with even fever alterations that I had planned from the beginning, strictly box stock except the slicks, the roll bar and the markings in the windows.... My brain says "maybe", my heart says "maybe not". You guys have the final say, and be honest, if you give me an "OK" I will post it for your sake because YOU wants to see it, I'm not trying to sneak something doubtful into here for MY sake, because for me it doesn't matter.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 14:02:01 GMT -5
I'd say no. It's a Pony/Muscle car and it's mostly stock. Just my 2 centavos. Nice build though.
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Post by Carps on Dec 4, 2015 16:38:03 GMT -5
The way I see things a Deuce roadster with a flathead is mostly stock!
Real hot rodders would have swapped that overheating little boat anchor out and filled the engine bay with some real overhead valve performance like a small block Chevy or Ford engine from a readilly available source of high performance poertrain parts, like a Mustang or Camaro.
The only way I'd see to change that for this board would be if Bob changed the rules to exclude those cars, but then that becomes way more discriminatpry than the existing model year cut-off.
The way I see hot rodding in general and model building as a related hobby is that we have two choices, be open minded which is the true spirit of hot rodding since the very first hot rod turned a wheel of be anal and close our minds to things that have always been there and always influenced hot rodding. The latter being what is driving many away from our hobby. The year cut-off is fair and equitable to all, when we start nit picking and saying certain vehicle types or models dont fit, is when we start creating problems that should not be so. We all have our own opinions as to what is or isn't and my good frind the late Leroi Tex smithe used to tell me the best thing about hot rodding is that there are no rules. He was also always at great pains to make sure people understood that the pre 1948 'rule' was never meant to be a rule it happened by accident because at the first NSRA Nationals (that's right kids, much later than the period we consider is traditional for hot rodding) The organisers figured they wouldnt be able to fit everybody in if it was open to all the hot rods. Tex used to love it when I turned up to visit driving what he called a modern hot rod, because he knew where it evolved from, who created it and why it was created and that it was done in the true spirit of what hot rodding has always been.
And for the record, I prefer pre WW2 cars as a base for my hot rods, but accept what others use. I categorise tri five Chevies with Camaros and Mustangs, common as arseholes (everybody has one) but I accept them for what they are, even drove a '57 to the NSRA Street Rod Nationals this year instead of the pre war car I normally use. Had no less of a good time and more people asked or admired the Chevy than ever did the older car.
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Post by Bernard Kron on Dec 5, 2015 13:22:50 GMT -5
My post earlier above still holds. Time Marches On. Standards change. New generations bring with them new focus. I also believe that forums by their very nature are self-selective. Memberships have a tendency to "vote with their feet", or in this case, with their eyeballs. The same is true at the NSRA Nationals. If a Tri-Five attracts more attention and complements then perhaps it's nothing more complicated than It's Time Has Come. For me, too, muscle cars are as common as dirt. I stopped watching the auction programs on cable television because they were all I seemed to see... But their shear numbers is proof of their powerful mystique. I sometimes think that fenderless pre-war hot rods have become another category of "classic antique cars", exotic and unattainable, at least relative to the post-war door slammers of the 60's and 70's. As much as I enjoy The Rodder's Journal their pages are full of "rich guy rods", the exquisite handiwork of a small coterie of expensive boutique shops and a long way from the populist expression of post-WWII prosperity that formed their roots. I try to recreate a bit of that earlier vibe in my models because it's within reach for me. If I had the means I would probably be a customer of one of those exclusive shops (or at least their suppliers...). But I suspect younger enthusiasts would take that same budget and restore/recreate a Tri-Five, or even an early 70's limited edition muscle car... Boring as hell to me (the muscle cars in any case), but the apple of their eyes, and for many a life long goal. But is that the spirit of TRaK? Not likely at least for now, IMHO.
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